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[Music]

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hello

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and welcome to episode number 23 of the

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point of convergence podcast

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as always i'm your host exo academian

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picture the following scene if you will

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witnesses on the ground gasp in awe as a

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dazzling spherical light

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moves silently across the sky

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mesmerizing

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it shimmers as it rocks back and forth

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descending like a falling leaf

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those watching below are frozen in place

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unable to move

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though if that's due to sheer wonder or

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because of some strange paralytic effect

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of the object itself no one is sure

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the object grows to be so bright that it

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seems to dim the very light of the

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noonday sun

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to the point where the moon and stars

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become visible in the background

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a rushing wind is felt though the trees

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do not appear to sway in its wake

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and the temperature drops noticeably

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almost as if the seasons have changed in

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and then almost as quickly as it began

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it ends

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the dazzling object fades to a single

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point in the sky

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and then disappears altogether replaced

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by the glaring light of the sun

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and the onrushing stifling heat of

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midday

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the witnesses soon regained their

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ability to move their limbs

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though their wits will take much longer

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to recover

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the news eventually makes its way around

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the world enrapturing the imagination

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of a curious public and the question

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inevitably rises

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what have these chosen observers just

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witnessed

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from one perspective this is clearly an

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event of miraculous wonder

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a divine encounter a sign from the

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heavens

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a revelation from the lord himself

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intended as a warning of

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from another point of view this event

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has all the hallmarks of another

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phenomenon

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altogether one associated with vehicles

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hypothesized to be spacecraft

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originating from some far-flung star

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system

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or perhaps from some mirror dimension

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which have traversed the invisible gap

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between

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worlds in an instant demonstrating the

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sophisticated nature of a technology

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that makes human engineering look like a

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play with sticks and stones

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the very same event the very same data

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set

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leads one group of people to

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wholeheartedly and without a parent

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reservation

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assume one explanation is the only real

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possibility

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while a different group comes to the

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other conclusion with just as much

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conviction

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and fervor but who's right

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and is it necessarily one or the other

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or could it perhaps be some blend of the

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two

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an event that is as much spiritual in

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nature as it is technological

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if such a thing was possible

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there are numerous events in human

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history some buried deep in the past

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like relics covered in centuries of

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sediment

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only reaching us as distorted echoes of

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long ago

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and others more recent perhaps even

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contemporaneous with this very

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discussion

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that bear a striking resemblance to the

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event i just described

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the so-called miracle of the sun that

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occurred in the small village of fatima

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portugal

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is perhaps the most famous of all these

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recent events

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of this type and magnitude the wonders

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observed at fatima

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occurred over a period of months and

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years in a rising tide of spectacle

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that resulted in a crescendo that was

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witnessed by tens of thousands

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the catholic church ultimately declared

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these events to be miraculous

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nothing less than a visitation of the

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historical virgin mary

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the very mother of god from their

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perspective

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blessing the faithful with her heavenly

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presence while calling the world

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to repent and to turn to the one true

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god in order to avoid

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eternal damnation but to ufologists

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especially those particularly familiar

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with the historical data

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the events of fatima bear a struggling

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resemblance

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to countless historical sightings of

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so-called unidentified flying objects

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and to reported close encounters with

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non-human

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alien intelligence how are we to make

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sense of these remarkable kinds of

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events

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and of the vastly different ways human

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beings try to make sense of them

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the events at fatima and the profoundly

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confounding questions that arise in

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their wake

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are the topic of this the 23rd episode

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of the point of convergence podcast

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as i mentioned in today's introduction

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the events at fatima

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are just one example amongst many where

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we see a crossover between the ufo

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phenomenon

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and religious history but this one is

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particularly useful

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because it is a relatively recent case

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and because there is a lot of historical

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data

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to comb through it's also a particularly

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interesting case as it pertains to

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today's discussion

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about religion and the ufo phenomenon

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because the largest

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and most influential religious body in

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the world

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namely the catholic church looked into

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this case

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for years in fact before declaring it a

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modern day miracle

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and again as i stated in the

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introduction

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most ufologists who've looked closely at

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this case

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are just as convinced that this is

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actually a case of the ufo phenomenon

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now jacques vallee who we mention often

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on this podcast

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wrote a book called dimensions in which

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he dedicates an entire chapter

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to the events at fatima and other

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religious events of this kind

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that bear striking crossover and

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parallels with the ufo phenomenon

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and now i'd like to read a quote from

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ballet's chapter

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what happened at fatima quote many

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descriptions of ufo phenomena

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force us to deal simultaneously with two

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categories

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we always attempt to separate the

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physical

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or technical and the spiritual or divine

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numerous witnesses in their statements

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after a close encounter

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claim bluntly that the experience of the

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phenomenon has a religious meaning to

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them

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perhaps it does perhaps we need not only

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a scientific breakthrough here

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but a consciousness breakthrough as well

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a global historical grasp of the beliefs

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materialistic as well as idealistic

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among which we have been

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groping for 10 000 years the famous

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apparitions at fatima

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offer a historical example of the

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religious dimension

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of ufo encounters the case is a

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celebrated one

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yet i am prepared to wager that few

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americans know the full story

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of what happened in 1917 near the small

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portuguese town

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i suspect that even fewer realize that

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the entire sequence of observations

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of an entity thought to be the virgin

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mary had begun

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two years previously with a fairly

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classical sequence

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of ufo sightings

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if we accept the interpretation given of

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fatima by the catholic church

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we are dealing with a phenomenon that

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cannot be explained either as a physical

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effect

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or as an illusion in its decision of

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1930

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arrived at after 13 years of painstaking

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investigations by many scholars

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the church states that the solar

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phenomenon of the 13th of october 1917

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described in the press of the time was

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most marvelous

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and caused the greatest impression on

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those who had the happiness

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of witnessing it this phenomenon which

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no astronomical observatory

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registered and which therefore was not

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natural

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was witnessed by persons of all

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categories and of all social classes

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believers and unbelievers journalists of

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the principal portuguese newspapers

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and even by persons some miles away

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facts which annul any explanation of

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collective

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illusion and that's the end of the quote

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from the catholic church

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jacques continues this miracle he puts

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in quotes

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the reader will note had been predicted

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several months before

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by three illiterate children after their

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vision of a woman

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in a bright glow quote unquote she had

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not said that she was the virgin mary

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she had simply stated that she was from

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heaven

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and instructed them to return every

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month until october

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when a public miracle would take place

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so quote

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everyone may believe unquote continuing

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with jock's quote

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the events at fatima involve luminous

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spheres lights with strange colors

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a feeling of heat waves all physical

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characteristics

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commonly associated with ufos

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they even include the typical falling

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leaf motion of the saucer

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zigzagging through the air they also

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encompass

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prophecy and a loss of ordinary

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consciousness on the part of the

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witnesses

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what we have called the psychic

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component of ufo sightings

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unquote and now i'd like to take some

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time to go through the events

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as they were reported by those who were

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present

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and i would just remind you of my

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comment from an earlier podcast episode

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that any event is an interpreted

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experience

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with that in mind remember that the

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majority of the population in that area

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in and around fatima were catholic and

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that didn't just inform how they

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worshipped on sunday mornings

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now it informed and gave birth to their

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entire world view

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the very way they would see the world it

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would define what they see as possible

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and impossible and the miracle of the

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sun

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also known as the miracle of fatima was

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a series of events

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that we're going to discuss

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and as jacques valet alluded to in his

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chapter we quoted from

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there were more events in fatima than

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most people realize

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it was a complex event and included more

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than one entity

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and what people saw differed as well

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but let's go through some of the

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highlights from the perspective of the

294
00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:40,720
typical point of view

295
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:42,640
first we have the angelic apparitions of

296
00:10:45,870 --> 00:10:43,839
fatima

297
00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:45,880
the first angelic visit in the spring of

298
00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:47,360
1916

299
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:49,440
involved an angel teaching shepherd

300
00:10:53,430 --> 00:10:51,600
children how to pray

301
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:53,440
the second angelic visit was in the

302
00:10:57,430 --> 00:10:55,279
summer of that same year

303
00:10:59,509 --> 00:10:57,440
and here the angel revealed himself as

304
00:11:01,269 --> 00:10:59,519
quote the angel of portugal

305
00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:01,279
and motivated the children to continue

306
00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:02,640
praying and

307
00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:05,040
to offer sacrifice to their lord with

308
00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:06,880
their suffering

309
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:08,880
the third angelic visit was in the

310
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:11,680
autumn of 1916.

311
00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:13,600
here the angel brought communion to the

312
00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:15,680
shepherd children and asked them to make

313
00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:16,880
reparation

314
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:18,560
for the crimes of all humanity

315
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:21,600
specifically ungrateful men

316
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:24,160
and then we have the marian apparitions

317
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:26,079
marian is another term for

318
00:11:30,949 --> 00:11:29,040
mary just so you know the first marian

319
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:30,959
apparition of fatima was in

320
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:34,160
may 13 1917. here

321
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:36,560
mary quote unquote asked the children to

322
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:38,079
return on the 13th

323
00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:41,279
each month for six months consecutively

324
00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:42,720
and she tells the children that they

325
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:44,320
will suffer much but they will

326
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:46,240
ultimately reach heaven

327
00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:48,000
she then asks the children to say the

328
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:49,279
rosary every day

329
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:55,350
the second of the so-called marian

330
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:56,959
apparitions of fatima

331
00:12:00,150 --> 00:11:59,680
took place on june 13th so exactly one

332
00:12:01,670 --> 00:12:00,160
month

333
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:01,680
after what we just discussed that

334
00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:04,079
happened on may 13th

335
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:06,560
here mary quote unquote asked the

336
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:08,720
children to add the fatima prayer to the

337
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:11,519
end of each decade of the rosary

338
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:13,839
they ask for her to take them to heaven

339
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:15,120
in which she replies

340
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:17,920
quote soon i will take jacinta and

341
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:18,880
francisco

342
00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:21,839
but lucia is to stay a while longer

343
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:23,200
unquote

344
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:25,360
and interestingly many people will point

345
00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:27,040
out here that

346
00:12:30,629 --> 00:12:29,519
indeed jacinta and francisco died

347
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,639
relatively young

348
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:33,040
whereas lucia lived to a relatively old

349
00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:35,680
age so this is an example of a supposed

350
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:38,560
prophecy that came true

351
00:12:42,550 --> 00:12:40,639
next we have the third of the so-called

352
00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:42,560
marian apparitions of fatima

353
00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:44,480
that took place one month after that

354
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:46,160
this time july 13

355
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:49,440
1917. here mary shows the children a

356
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:50,399
vision of hell

357
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:52,880
and reveals that god wishes for there to

358
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:54,240
be a great devotion

359
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:57,360
to mary's immaculate heart to save souls

360
00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:58,800
from hell

361
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:01,200
she then predicted the second world war

362
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:03,040
and the persecution of the faithful

363
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:07,360
in russia warning that without prayer

364
00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:09,519
and consecration of russia to her

365
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:10,800
immaculate heart

366
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:13,279
she meaning russia will spread her

367
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:15,200
errors throughout the world

368
00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:17,680
fomenting wars and persecution of the

369
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:18,839
church

370
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,680
unquote next up we have the fourth

371
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,680
marian apparition of fatima

372
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:25,279
and as you can guess it's one month

373
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,560
after that so august 19th this time

374
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:30,720
here the local administrator imprisons

375
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:31,600
the children

376
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:33,920
yes indeed that happened he did this to

377
00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:34,880
prevent them from

378
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:36,880
making their appointment with so-called

379
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:38,240
mary

380
00:13:41,509 --> 00:13:40,320
six days later she appears to them in a

381
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:41,519
pastor and asked them

382
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:44,560
quote pray pray very much and

383
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:46,880
make sacrifices for sinners for many

384
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:48,320
souls go to hell

385
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,560
because there is no one to pray for them

386
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,480
unquote

387
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:54,560
the fifth marian apparition as you can

388
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:56,480
guess happens one month after that

389
00:14:03,990 --> 00:14:00,720
september 13 1917 a crowd witnesses

390
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,000
white rose petals falling from the sky

391
00:14:08,069 --> 00:14:06,720
and then disappearing and very

392
00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:08,079
interesting here because these petals

393
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,040
seem to get

394
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:11,360
smaller as they fell to the point where

395
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:12,880
they actually reach people's hands they

396
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:15,120
were no longer there

397
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,440
and here lucia asked our lady of fatima

398
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:18,880
to cure the sick

399
00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:21,120
she replies that only some will be cured

400
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:22,399
while the lord

401
00:14:27,590 --> 00:14:25,519
has no confidence unquote in others who

402
00:14:29,829 --> 00:14:27,600
were not healed

403
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:29,839
the sixth marian apparition of fatima

404
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:31,920
happened one month after that

405
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:35,519
this time october 13th the this time

406
00:14:40,230 --> 00:14:38,720
70 to 100 000 people witnessed what is

407
00:14:43,269 --> 00:14:40,240
called the miracle of the sun

408
00:14:46,389 --> 00:14:43,279
the climax event the pinnacle

409
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:46,399
and they saw it from up to 10 miles away

410
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:48,800
even secular news reporters who were

411
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:51,680
present to mock the events in some ways

412
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:54,880
reported unexplainable phenomenon

413
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:57,360
mary reveals herself as quote the lady

414
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:58,399
of the rosary

415
00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:00,959
and says quote people must amend their

416
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:01,680
lives

417
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:04,000
ask forgiveness for their sins and not

418
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,040
offend our lord

419
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:07,600
anymore for he is already too much

420
00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:08,560
offended

421
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:12,639
unquote and so that gives you a sense of

422
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:13,839
some of the highlights

423
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:16,160
as they are described and recorded in

424
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:18,000
catholic history

425
00:15:22,629 --> 00:15:20,240
of course ufologists as i already talked

426
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:22,639
about see the entire series of events

427
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:25,120
quite differently this is what jacques

428
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:26,000
valet says

429
00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:27,760
again in that chapter in his book

430
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:29,920
dimensions quote

431
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:32,320
such is the story of fatima as it can be

432
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:34,959
reconstructed from reports of the time

433
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:37,920
and from church investigations the final

434
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:40,560
quote-unquote miracle had come at the

435
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:42,480
culmination of a precise series of

436
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:43,600
apparitions

437
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:46,320
combined with contacts and messages that

438
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:47,920
place it very clearly

439
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:51,120
in my opinion in the perspective of ufo

440
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:52,560
phenomena

441
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:55,040
not only was a flying disc or globe

442
00:15:58,870 --> 00:15:56,560
consistently involved

443
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:58,880
but its motion its falling leave

444
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:01,199
trajectory its light effects

445
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:04,240
the thunderclaps the buzzing sounds the

446
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:05,839
strange fragrance

447
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:08,480
the fall of quote unquote angel hair

448
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:11,199
that dissolves upon reaching the ground

449
00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:13,360
the heat wave associated with a close

450
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,279
approach of the disc

451
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:17,680
all of these are frequent parameters of

452
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:19,120
ufo sightings

453
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:22,000
everywhere and so are the paralysis the

454
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:23,040
amnesia

455
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:25,759
the conversations and the healings

456
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:31,110
now as you compare and contrast what i

457
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:32,000
just read from

458
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:33,839
jacques valet in terms of his

459
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:36,720
perspective on what happened at fatima

460
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:39,040
and compare that with what i read from

461
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:39,839
the more

462
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:42,079
catholic perspective you'd wonder if

463
00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:43,759
we're talking about the same series of

464
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:44,320
events

465
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:48,079
at all but indeed we are i'd now like to

466
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:49,759
quote from another book that takes the

467
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:51,759
perspective that what happened at fatima

468
00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:54,560
was an example of the ufo phenomenon

469
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:56,560
this was written by two portuguese

470
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:57,360
authors

471
00:17:01,030 --> 00:17:00,240
named joachim fernandez and fina de

472
00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:01,040
armata

473
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:03,360
and it's been translated into english in

474
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:05,679
the book heavenly lights the apparitions

475
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:06,480
of fatima

476
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:09,679
and the ufo phenomenon

477
00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:11,600
first let's talk about objects inside of

478
00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:13,280
clouds quote

479
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:16,160
in fatima manuel marto saw some type of

480
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,720
luminous globe spinning in the clouds

481
00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:20,799
his observation must not have been much

482
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:23,520
different than that which a rosato saw

483
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:27,120
over lisbon on december 10 1954

484
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:29,120
he saw a silver ball that shone

485
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:31,600
intensely among the high clouds

486
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:34,799
if maria carriera had been rosado's

487
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,880
side she would certainly have said that

488
00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:38,720
the cloud was a silver color

489
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:39,840
and that it was something which

490
00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:42,160
reflected a lot mrs

491
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:44,720
j said that a silver glow making a small

492
00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:45,200
turn

493
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:47,280
appeared to cut through the clouds here

494
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:52,870
so what the authors are doing in this

495
00:17:55,909 --> 00:17:54,880
portion of the book is basically giving

496
00:17:58,950 --> 00:17:55,919
other examples

497
00:18:00,150 --> 00:17:58,960
other historical examples of events even

498
00:18:03,029 --> 00:18:00,160
in and around

499
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:03,039
portugal that mirror what was observed

500
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:04,640
at fatima

501
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:06,640
and now they go on to discuss something

502
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:08,400
that happened from space

503
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:11,200
that also has a parallel this is from a

504
00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:13,520
section called in orbit around earth as

505
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:14,799
seen from skylab

506
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:18,559
2. quote a frequent observation that has

507
00:18:23,110 --> 00:18:20,960
been made pertinent to our investigation

508
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:23,120
is that of objects spinning around their

509
00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:24,480
own axes

510
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:26,640
although it makes no reference to clouds

511
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:28,080
it is worth citing

512
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:29,679
the following case that involved

513
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:31,919
american astronauts who witnessed an

514
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:34,960
unknown object far above our blue planet

515
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:38,240
in space quote during this shift aboard

516
00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:39,360
skylab 2

517
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:42,160
close to 450 kilometers from earth

518
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:42,880
astronauts

519
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:46,080
jack luzma owen garriott and alan bean

520
00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:49,039
observed and photographed a green ufo

521
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:50,960
for over 10 minutes

522
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:53,039
secondly they declared that the object

523
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:54,799
which was at a distance of between

524
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,679
50 and 80 kilometers in an orbit very

525
00:19:02,950 --> 00:18:59,200
close to their own

526
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:02,960
spun every 10 seconds

527
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,360
a pilot from the portuguese air force

528
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:07,760
jose francisco rodriguez

529
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:10,400
observed a ufo enveloped within a cloud

530
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:12,000
while flying over a dam

531
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,360
at castelo de bode he says quote i

532
00:19:19,270 --> 00:19:17,679
decided then to fly by instruments and

533
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,280
enter the clouds

534
00:19:22,630 --> 00:19:21,360
he would later recall i was deciding

535
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:22,640
which cloud i would enter

536
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:24,640
when i saw something dark in the middle

537
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:25,679
of a cloud

538
00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:29,200
that contrasted with the rest

539
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:32,080
which were whitish the ufo seemed to be

540
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:33,360
camouflaging itself

541
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:35,440
inside the cloud bank or emitting a

542
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:38,400
vapor in which it concealed itself

543
00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:40,559
the truth is that many times diverse

544
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:42,480
strange objects have been seen

545
00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:46,160
surrounded by clouds round or not round

546
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:48,320
gyrating or using some other type of

547
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:49,600
movement

548
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:52,799
above the neems korbasak eardrum in

549
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:56,160
october 1952 something like the design

550
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:57,600
presented in figure 10

551
00:20:01,270 --> 00:20:00,400
which shows a spherical ufo inside

552
00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:01,280
clouds

553
00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:04,720
was seen not even in this obscure detail

554
00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:06,080
does fatima stand

555
00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:12,230
now i could go on but you get the point

556
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:14,159
a point that's made both in vale's

557
00:20:17,029 --> 00:20:16,000
chapter as well as in the book heavenly

558
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:17,039
lights that i just

559
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:20,000
quoted from the bottom line is much of

560
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:20,559
the

561
00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:23,360
phenomena observed at fatima has been

562
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:24,000
observed

563
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:26,400
elsewhere and most of those other

564
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:27,360
occurrences

565
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:29,360
have fallen into the literature of the

566
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:30,720
ufo phenomenon

567
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:33,200
have been considered as events of the

568
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:35,600
ufo phenomenon

569
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,520
what are we to make of these historical

570
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:39,440
accounts you'd think if

571
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:42,480
change is the aim that perhaps larger

572
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,679
public spectacles

573
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:45,679
in major cities around the world new

574
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:47,200
york or paris

575
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:50,400
would be more useful and persuasive one

576
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:52,240
would think anyway

577
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:54,080
but the truth is we don't know what we

578
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:55,760
don't know

579
00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:57,760
are these beings showing signs of

580
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:58,799
understanding

581
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:00,480
us far better than we understand

582
00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:03,200
ourselves perhaps

583
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:05,679
in many ways we are still at the dawn of

584
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:07,919
a true understanding of the territory of

585
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:09,440
our own subconscious

586
00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:12,480
as i've discussed before they seem to

587
00:21:17,669 --> 00:21:14,400
understand this aspect of ourselves

588
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:17,679
much better than we do and if you add to

589
00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:19,360
that the fact that they can move back

590
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:21,039
and forth in time

591
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:24,159
as evidence suggests we've talked about

592
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:25,919
that both today as well as in

593
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:28,400
the podcast episode last week when we

594
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,960
discussed what happened in 1945 in new

595
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:32,720
mexico

596
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:34,159
if that's the case that they can move

597
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:36,159
back and forth in time then perhaps

598
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:38,080
they're aware of precisely the

599
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:40,080
fine-tuning intervention

600
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:43,919
necessary to bring about vast inevitable

601
00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:44,880
but to us

602
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:47,280
intrepid transformations of our

603
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:54,310
now previously we have speculated about

604
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:56,080
religious history and the degree to

605
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,720
which

606
00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:58,400
the intelligence behind the ufo

607
00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:01,360
phenomenon may have been involved

608
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:04,400
but with fatima perhaps here is our best

609
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:05,520
example

610
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:08,559
of the ufo phenomenon purposely casting

611
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:09,120
itself

612
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,280
in a certain light in a way that's going

613
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:13,520
to be interpreted in a certain way

614
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:16,720
by the people of that time and in a

615
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:17,120
light

616
00:22:21,029 --> 00:22:19,600
that's not accurate in terms of the

617
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:21,039
underlying reality

618
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:27,190
let's be honest many people would read

619
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:28,960
what happened at fatima

620
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:31,200
the messages that were given by these

621
00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:32,799
supposed angels

622
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:35,039
and conclude that this is deceptive that

623
00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:37,120
this is the intelligence behind the ufo

624
00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:38,320
phenomenon

625
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:40,640
lying to people casting itself in a

626
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:42,080
light that's not

627
00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:45,120
accurate in order to deceive people

628
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:51,990
now to be clear this is not my

629
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:54,000
perspective and i'll explain why in just

630
00:22:58,070 --> 00:22:56,799
a moment but it is a perspective put

631
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:58,080
forward by many

632
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:00,960
in ufology especially those that assume

633
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:03,280
the intelligence behind the phenomenon

634
00:23:10,630 --> 00:23:06,240
is nefarious in nature is ultimately

635
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:12,549
the assumption underlying that

636
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:13,760
perspective

637
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:17,280
is that deception is by nature

638
00:23:21,669 --> 00:23:19,360
negative that it can't be a good

639
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:21,679
situation that if a species is going to

640
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:24,799
quote unquote lie to you deceive you

641
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:27,360
then they cannot have good intentions by

642
00:23:31,270 --> 00:23:28,320
definition

643
00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:31,280
many people hold that perspective i

644
00:23:35,830 --> 00:23:32,480
don't see it that way

645
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:35,840
because really when you're trying to

646
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:38,720
effect change on a civilization on a

647
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:40,320
group of people

648
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,559
you have to speak at a level that they

649
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:44,080
can understand

650
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:46,400
we've talked before about biblical

651
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:47,120
history

652
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:50,640
and how prophecies were given in the

653
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,760
past that would

654
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:53,039
make sense to people with a

655
00:23:57,269 --> 00:23:55,840
pre-scientific understanding of reality

656
00:23:59,269 --> 00:23:57,279
that was the message for them and it

657
00:24:00,630 --> 00:23:59,279
made sense for them in light of where

658
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:00,640
they were

659
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,720
what time they lived in and how they

660
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:04,480
understood reality

661
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:07,120
my suggestion is that the ufo phenomenon

662
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:08,720
the intelligence behind the ufo

663
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:09,919
phenomenon

664
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:13,279
in cases like fatima knows those things

665
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:14,799
about us as well

666
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:17,279
and speaks to us in a way that will help

667
00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:18,960
us move forward

668
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:22,320
in the level we're at because as i've

669
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:23,600
talked before about

670
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:25,520
consciousness levels the truth is you

671
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:27,360
can never speak at someone

672
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:30,000
beyond their consciousness level all you

673
00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:32,000
can do is try and mature

674
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:34,559
their current consciousness level so you

675
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:36,080
speak in such a way you share

676
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:37,440
information

677
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:39,760
in such a way that they will mature

678
00:24:42,789 --> 00:24:40,720
their view

679
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:42,799
and only when they have a mature version

680
00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:44,960
of their current consciousness level

681
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:47,200
can they therefore begin to glimpse the

682
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:48,080
next one

683
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:54,870
let me just state that one more time

684
00:24:59,510 --> 00:24:56,240
because i think this is

685
00:25:00,549 --> 00:24:59,520
essential for understanding the means

686
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:00,559
and motivation

687
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:02,320
of the intelligence behind the ufo

688
00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:04,960
phenomenon at least potentially this is

689
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:10,070
we talked about different levels of

690
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,520
consciousness we talked about the

691
00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:13,200
different colors that are associated

692
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,400
with those

693
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:16,320
teal being one of the highest ones that

694
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:19,279
i talked about in a previous episode

695
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:21,440
now when someone is at a certain

696
00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:23,440
consciousness level

697
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:25,200
if you speak to them with the

698
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:26,640
perspective of reality

699
00:25:30,549 --> 00:25:28,960
of a higher consciousness level they

700
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:30,559
will either assume

701
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:33,669
you're crazy or you're speaking gobbly

702
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:36,549
or you're deceived and that's true

703
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:38,559
because they literally can't see

704
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:40,799
beyond the ceiling of their own level of

705
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:41,760
consciousness

706
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:43,840
that's true for any of us even if you're

707
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:45,360
at teal level

708
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:47,679
you can't see beyond the ceiling of that

709
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:48,960
level of consciousness

710
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,760
so if someone was speaking to you from a

711
00:25:54,549 --> 00:25:52,880
level above that

712
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:54,559
you wouldn't understand it or you would

713
00:25:58,230 --> 00:25:56,559
misinterpret it based on your current

714
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:58,240
level

715
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:01,440
so when we are helping people to grow

716
00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:04,400
we talk to them and we interact with

717
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:06,320
them in such a way that they can mature

718
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:06,720
their

719
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:09,440
current view and only when that is

720
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,400
matured will they then begin to glimpse

721
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:14,799
sometimes through cognitive dissonance

722
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:16,240
the next level

723
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:18,400
and eventually they can ascend to that

724
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:19,840
but it has to work

725
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:25,830
now earlier in this episode i quoted

726
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:27,120
from jacques villa's

727
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:30,080
book dimensions when he talked about the

728
00:26:35,669 --> 00:26:32,320
spiritual versus technical

729
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:35,679
dynamic of life and how we as a species

730
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:37,039
specifically those of us

731
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:39,520
in western civilization which is

732
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:40,480
grounded in

733
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:43,919
the thought of scientific materialism

734
00:26:48,070 --> 00:26:46,480
tend to separate those we don't join

735
00:26:50,830 --> 00:26:48,080
those in any way really

736
00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:50,840
in our civilization or even in our daily

737
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:56,070
but here i would suggest is where the

738
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:57,679
ufo phenomenon

739
00:27:00,870 --> 00:27:00,480
confounds so many people because it

740
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:00,880
really

741
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:04,840
is a both and phenomenon not on either

742
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:07,120
or from my perspective

743
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:09,279
what i've observed is many of those who

744
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:11,520
began seeing this topic from a nuts and

745
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,120
bolts or solely

746
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:15,600
technological perspective have been

747
00:27:19,750 --> 00:27:17,520
persuaded over time that there's a

748
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,760
spiritual dynamic to this phenomenon as

749
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:21,200
well

750
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:24,480
and of that subset many of those who are

751
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:26,000
experiencers

752
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:28,880
have come to that conclusion from direct

753
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:30,720
encounters

754
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:33,279
and on the other end of the spectrum

755
00:27:37,510 --> 00:27:35,039
many who began seeing this

756
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:37,520
as nothing but a spiritual battle of

757
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:39,039
good versus evil

758
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:41,840
angels versus demons if you will have

759
00:27:46,149 --> 00:27:43,200
come to recognize

760
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:46,159
unmistakably physical aspects to this

761
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:47,039
phenomenon

762
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,039
as well it really is a both

763
00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:53,760
and kind of scenario to those who are

764
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:54,559
really open

765
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:02,470
now earlier on i mentioned that to help

766
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,200
people change to help people grow

767
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:07,600
all you can do is try and mature the

768
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:08,880
current perspective

769
00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:11,919
that's what will ultimately potentially

770
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:14,480
birth a greater understanding and a new

771
00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:16,399
level of consciousness

772
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:18,640
and we should keep that in mind as the

773
00:28:22,149 --> 00:28:19,520
revelations

774
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:22,159
of the ufo phenomenon begin to be

775
00:28:25,909 --> 00:28:23,679
grappled with by a much

776
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:25,919
larger percentage of the population

777
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:27,600
because this is coming

778
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:30,240
even what's happened in recent weeks is

779
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:31,200
stunning

780
00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:33,279
the changes are happening and happening

781
00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:35,120
quickly the recognition

782
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:38,000
is beginning to grow like wildfire

783
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:43,590
and as this recognition continues to

784
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:45,600
grow continues to roll out

785
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:47,840
with these new revelations all across

786
00:28:51,909 --> 00:28:49,200
the world

787
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:51,919
across a variety of consciousness levels

788
00:28:56,870 --> 00:28:53,520
and paradigms that exist

789
00:28:59,430 --> 00:28:56,880
across the planet we can be agents

790
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:59,440
that help that transformation that help

791
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:00,399
the process of

792
00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:03,440
change as we as a species navigate

793
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:10,070
and on that note we've come to the close

794
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:11,279
of another edition

795
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:14,080
of the point of convergence podcast as

796
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:14,640
always

797
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:16,960
let's keep this conversation going and

798
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:17,919
growing

799
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:19,520
please continue to spread the word

800
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:21,600
through social media and with people you

801
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:22,000
meet

802
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:25,279
on the street so to speak but until next

803
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:26,159
time friends

804
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:27,520
from deep within the blue ridge